[]GOD[] And the Search for...

[NeverEnder]

God. A massive topic. Many views and thoughts/beliefs worldwide. To believe or not believe?

This is a sensitive topic and I have concluded a topic amongst Aspies that ends in the decision of Atheism/Agnosticism. (Perhaps I am wrong in that conclusion)

Allow me to explain...

-I was born into a Catholic family and went to private, Catholic schools for twelve years. In high school I was into punk rock and became a proselytizing Communist/Atheist. I hated the Church and all that it stood for.

-Upon reaching adulthood I began experimenting with drugs, primarily marijuana and LSD/mushrooms. The people I became associated with were Hippies; I was introduced to Pagan beliefs and started down this road. While "expanding my consciousness" via hallucinogens I began to develop a love and reverence for nature. This went on for some years.

-I found out in my 20's that I was Jewish (long story). I began to consider this from a distance intrigued by my German/Jewish heritage.

-When I was 30 I moved to Texas to pursue an engineering degree. There I came across a Synagogue and began attending services. I had already had experiences with what I now term "God". The temple was a conduit to reach this plane on a different level I thought. I no longer did illegal drugs and was searching for a new route to a higher world.

-Jump ahead to the last few years: I converted to Christianity. Frankly, though at this point, I do not really consider myself a Christian (another long story). I cannot partake in those rituals and honestly, although I hold respect for Jesus and his teachings, I CANNOT claim he was God. (This is the crux of Christianity, believing he was God, savior - I cannot with true intentions in my heart claim that).

My girlfriend is a Christian and part of our relationship depends on me being a Christian. This is her view. She knows my stance now and, although she accepts my feelings, she feels we cannot truly be together as one without this prerequisite. This leaves me confused and in a very awkward place. We live together but share nothing that couples share (Sexuality, intimacy, etc).

Now I am left with my belief in God and my Jewish roots.

Just to clarify: I am in NO way a Fundamentalist: I believe in the Big Bang and in Evolution.

I am just seeking the Higher realm above this paltry, finite Earth.

I am confused in many ways.

I thank you for reading this.

-Matthew-

 

[Spinning Compass]

Don't feel alone, many of us are confused and searching as well. I have written several blogs on this very topic. There are things that attract me to Christianity and things that repel. Also, I don't think fundamentalism offers adequate answers to those of us on the spectrum and especially those of us who have some knowledge of science and how the brain works.

It sounds like your relationship with your girlfriend isn't really based on anything except a conditional expectation of hers. This is a BIG problem in Christian/non-Christian friendships and even Christian/Christian friendships if one party isn't perceived as being as Christian as the other. I'm sure your girlfriend can explain the Scriptural basis for this attitude. Sadly, those Christians who are aware of the conditional nature of their friendships and don't deny that it IS conditional, end up defending their actions based on these scriptures. The fact that they are hurting another person is irrelevant. This is what I do not like about Christianity, in that it ends up becoming an us and them situation. We had a discussion one night at my church's small group on that very issue. I said all too often Christians behave towards others as if they had spiritual cooties. Well, said one person, they do! I then said, is that how I am supposed to act towards family members and friends who don't share my beliefs, treat them as if they were contaminated? Well, no, you are supposed to love them. But what kind of answer is that?

Best of luck in your journey.

 

[HelloDizzy]

I'm Jewish-German too. And I live in an Orthodox house.
AND I don't fully buy into following all of these laws.

I also believe in the Big Bang Theory + Evolution, + Creation. They are compatible.
I see it as, God (who is actually a spiritual current, the intangible infinite existing outside of our finite world) caused the Big Bang to happen and for evolution to set in. God created the laws of nature aka evolution, weather, health, etc.
I see God as an It. Not a He or She.

This is my personal opinion about the relationship; don't pretend to believe in something you can't because it is irrational to you for the sake of keeping a relationship. It isn't honesty, and it isn't what I would term a truly "intimate" relationship.

I wish you luck with it. Religion VS relationships is hard. My boyfriend would never give up much of his Orthodox customs out of fear but he accepts my skepticism, thankfully

 

[NeverEnder]

HelloDizzy:

I see God as an It. Not a He or She.

I agree with you; This is how I see it.

This is my personal opinion about the relationship; don't pretend to believe in something you can't because it is irrational to you for the sake of keeping a relationship. It isn't honesty, and it isn't what I would term a truly "intimate" relationship.

You are fully correct. I would never go down a path of dishonesty in a relationship, especially over a great matter such as this.

 

[NeverEnder]

I just got done with a long, 3-hour conversation/debate over this very topic and it's worn me out.

Discussing all of the religious and metaphysical aspects to religion (specifically Christianity) and my questioning of such.

I love debating, talking, but this time I was left almost physically (and mentally) sick; I had to take a Klonipin to calm down and right myself. I feel a bit better now.

At least I feel she now has a better view of why I am questioning and, in some aspects, not believing. That is good.

She upset me at one point by saying "You're only half way there...". This means that I am "missing out" on a greater portion by believing only in God but not Christ. I was quite offended by this and I let her know it.

I do not know what the future holds with us; She says we cannot walk together as one on two separate paths. I must prepare myself for the inevitable.

 

[kasmanaft08]

She upset me at one point by saying "You're only half way there...". This means that I am "missing out" on a greater portion by believing only in God but not Christ. I was quite offended by this and I let her know it.

I do not know what the future holds with us; She says we cannot walk together as one on two separate paths. I must prepare myself for the inevitable.

Not trying to make a judgement or anything, bu I would be quite offended if someone had said something like that to me as well. I think beliefs (and opinions, which essentially are what make up religious beliefs) are personal and are not up to others to judge their validity. Your choice to find God or religion if you want it, should be a personal one, and should go the way you feel comfortable going about it. It's impossible for anyone to expect you to find it "completely" otherwise. It hinges on your beliefs and your feelings, not other's approval or standards, I would think.

 

[HelloDizzy]

I know how these "future altering" conversations can warrant a Klonopin or similar =/
Jews for Judaism

This site may be able to help you show (with scripture backing) why you can't be what she wants you to be.

 

[NeverEnder]

I know how these "future altering" conversations can warrant a Klonopin or similar =/
Jews for Judaism

This site may be able to help you show (with scripture backing) why you can't be what she wants you to be.

Thank you for the link to Jews for Judaism; There is much to peruse there and it may answer some of my questions.

-Matthew-

 

[BruceCM]

Well, unless I'm missing something about the Big Bang, there's not really much idea how or why it happened & it isn't something that can be studied with scientific methods. It's a philosophical area & they've many opinions about such matters. It's also something entirely up to each and every person to make their own minds up about. One way or another, the matter affects everybody, whether there is a God or not & if there is, what that God wants & requires.

 

[RavenSly]

I personally am an Agnostic. I simply accept that unless I actually experience a definitively supernatural event, I won't really know whether there's a god or not. In truth, Faith, by definition means "belief without proof." People with faith believe in things without actually having definitve proof for them. That's the difference between faith and trust ["belief with proof"].

My beliefs, however are not quite as simple as that. I have struggled with religious/spiritual/supernatural/metaphysical/[whatever damn term you want to use] matters nearly my entire life, struggling to determine for myself exactly where it is I stand. My opinion has gone back and forth a few times, and I still don't know exactly what my final stance will be. I've spent time going through the entire plot of the bible [I've never read it, but I'm an American, and I watch a lot of History Channel, which for those of you who don't know, is owned by Fox, yes Fox, look it up on News of the World's Wikipedia Page and you'll see the History Channel listed, and so know pretty much all of the stories].

Simply from going through them and then analyzing them using my logical ability, a trait that we all possess, but that I in particular have refined and practiced with, I have been able to discern numerous plot holes, inconsistencies, logical paradoxes, and moral failings within the Christian Doctrine. To be honest, if I ever did devote myself to any one actual religion, it would probably be Buddhism, as it is the one that most fits my view of the world anyway, and makes the most sense to me.

As I see it, there is no reason that the Universe had to have been created by a God, that any of histories events couldn't have just played out the way they did naturally, however, the thing that gives me pause is the enormous wealth of reports on supernatural phenomena. They come in all sorts of varieties, and I can't shake the feeling that perhaps there is something truly fantastic waiting to be discovered out there. On this point, I also firmly believe that this question is one that can be solved. Humans have already come a very long way in solving it, and as theoretical physicists across the planet begin piecing together the final pieces of the puzzle, new data coming in all the time from satellites, particle accelerators, other experiments, and simply the minds of the physicists themselves, that this problem truly will be solved. I tell you, we are a lot closer to the answer than many of you think, and questions like the nature of the Big Bang event, the origins of Life, the true nature of Consciousness, and even the ultimate mystery itself, what happens after death, are not truly unsolvable questions as was once thought. There are men and women across the globe who are right now engaging in ingenious and meticulous experiments to attain the true answers to these problems.

One thing I have been able to determine for myself, is that I do believe in some form of Karma, and maybe even Destiny. I say this not out of thin air, but because in my own life, a long and very improbable series of coincidences, events which seem linked to other things that have happened to me, have led me to believe that. I have actually experienced what others might call "the Hand of Fate."

Lastly, I have often wondered whether if perhaps there is indeed some form of supernatural aspect to the universe, but that the true nature of it is too complicated for us to understand or determine without receiving more definitive proof on it. I, in essence, have wondered if many of the religions arose the way they did because it was simply easier to explain things by saying that there was a supernatural being who controlled it.

 

[NeverEnder]

Thank you, RavenSly for the well-defined and excellent post.

 

[HelloDizzy]

Side note: I believe prayer is actually projecting spiritual "thoughts" into the Infinite, into the universe, to make them plausible.

Very different from the "talking to a big grandaddy figure God on a cloud" view of prayer.

 

[kg4fxg]

Well,

I am an atheist. That does not sound very good as I spend three years in Catholic Seminary of which one year was a Monastery. But I follow more closely the believe of Aristotle. There is a first mover but it is not the Christian concept of God.

OK, I need to clarify. I have studied philosophy quiet extensively. Good or bad it is my personal view. Don't change yours or assume mine is valid. I left the seminary and today I work as a CPA. I was reading a book and it describe patients in a several hospitals where some were prayed for and some were not to see if pray made a difference. A real test. End result was there was not a difference in all the control groups meaning some new there were prayed for and other did not and other were not to see if there was a difference. That does not mean there is not a God, but it might mean that God does not show favors or preference to Christians. Or created the world and just watches.

I tend to follow Aristotle but other philosophers have valid points too. I'll try not to get too deep and I certainly don't want to shake anyone faith or change anyone. You can't prove faith. Sorry, I don't mean to be impolite or offend.

I read tons of philosophy to have another view and mostly it has nothing to do about God. If you have any questions about seminary don't hesitate to ask. I don't regret it, the philosophy I learned is extremely valuable to me. It was not a waste of time.

Bill

 

[Spinning Compass]

I don't know about anyone else but I'd like to hear more about your seminary experience, Bill. As an agnostic Catholic myself, I've always wondered just what it is they teach would-be priests. If you don't mind, what prompted you to leave?

 

[kg4fxg]

Sure, glad you asked.

I first attended St. Mary's Seminary in Baltimore Maryland. The classes were pretty good. They want you to have a bachelors in Philosophy. My undergrad was Accounting. I took many philosophy classes before seminary and took them during the summers. I still have to do an additional year of philosophy at seminary. I would have been in seminary five years if I finished. I made it through about three years.

St. Mary's is also know as the Pink Palace. In other words many there are gay. Here is the problem. You grow up Catholic in a parish that is usually very conservative. The seminary was very liberal. I was not prepared for that so young. Women taught in the seminary and were very angry because they could not be ordained. So here is where I first learned about politics. If you were a conservative you did poorly academically. I also did not like the feminine attitude. Those that are gay and you know it in a few minutes.

I transfered to Saint Meinrad which is a Benedictine Monastery a year and a half later. It had the same issue only worse. Many of the men studying called each other by their girl names. The women (Nuns) love the liberal gays but haves conservatives. One in particular was so bad the Pope basically excommincated from ever teaching in a Catholic Seminary. Google (Sister Carmel McEnroy) and you will see that whole ordeal. I think on my hall 60% or more were gay?

Don't get me wrong I have gay friends now and I don't mind them. Back then it bothered me so I have grew a lot. But today the adults I know don't hit on me either which makes a huge difference. So if you are gay please don't take offense. I am not here to judge that is not my place.

Saint Meinrad made us take an ecumennical month but attending another seminary in January. I refused and wrote the Bishop. I ended up going and I met my wife today there. At this time in my life I was not happy with seminary nor church politics. The Archbishop had an affair with Vicki Long which rocked the diocese. In only one week I decided to marry my wife I met at another seminary. We married a year later and have been married for 21 years now.

Since I left the church and most there have not spoken to me. The positive is they paid for all the education. I loved the philosophy courses which I still study today. So I tend to follow Aristotle's view of God. Oh, I was affiliated with one church here and served there for two summers. But I was refused and was not allowed to get married there. Although the whole congregation attended my wedding. It was a small church and a small wedding. I like small.

Here, want some humor? At seminary they used illegal bread. It was not unleavened. So it made crumbs. As Catholic we genuflect to the red candle where the communion is stored. Me and my friends used to genuflect to the closet where the vacuum cleaner was because Jesus was in there because they vacuumed all the crumbs.

When I say I was conservative I mean I liked following the rules. The liberals hated rules. They hated you if you quoted Vatican II. I loved the rules and could quote Vatican II. I should have known I was (AS) in seminary. But many of us had idiosyncraseas. You had to and many priests had them so I thought I would fit in real well.

I practiced as a Catholic, been a Southern Baptist, Methodist. And now I am mostly an Atheist or Agnostic in the sense in believing in Aristotle's God. Let me try to say it this way. Too much education especially philosophy and religion is not a good mix. I can asked questions that would upset any pastor. The whole thing is a journey and I don't regret any of it.

Thanks for asking. I have no problem sharing anything from my past here.

Bill

 

[Spinning Compass]

I had heard the seminaries had problems but didn't realize they were THAT bad. About the church politics, as a layperson I can totally relate. It was one of the things that caused me to leave the church. I was having a lot of issues relating to Asperger's-caused social problems, I had experienced sexual abuse while dating, I had major, major questions, and nobody was willing or prepared to deal with it. I always thought that church was where you went to get answers. Wrong.

So basically I am agnostic. I am in an interesting situation as for the past year I have been attending one of these small evangelical churches that seem to be popping up all over the place. I've been writing about it in my blog and exploring what it is that I have problems with. All too many people want answers in sound bites when it comes to why don't you believe. Or they have preconceived notions why you don't believe. Some of the people there know that I am not a believer and some don't, they see and hear what they want to see and hear. I sent one of them a list of ten questions (we were having a discussion on how to reach nonbelievers) that they would be likely to be asked and which traditional apologetics don't even begin to cover in my opinion, and she said that they were very interesting questions and no they weren't offensive, and that she had asked some of them herself and that she would ask her husband who leads the Sunday night Bible group about the possibility of us discussing some of them. Bet you money that I will never hear anything about them again, even though I said the worst thing you can do to an inquiring nonbeliever is to blow him or her off. I know a blow off when I see it, and this is one. Oh, well. Doesn't bother me. Anyway I am going there primarily for the social contact as there really isn't much of an alternative, and they are pretty liberal when it comes to do's and don'ts, I can live my life pretty much the way I like and don't have to worry about offending people through my tastes in music, films, dress and books (although naturally I don't tell them everything).

 

[Spinning Compass]

Your story reminds me of a story I heard about the Baha'is (I studied that for awhile and also Judaism, only to realize in the middle of studying Judaism that my problem wasn't with a particular religion but with the notion of God in general). After the founder of the Baha'i Faith, Baha'u'llah, was exiled to Mount Carmel, Israel, a story started circulating that if you wanted to lose your faith all you had to do is visit Mount Carmel. Apparently Baha'u'llah was having a good old time living it up on Mount Carmel, contrary to some of the things he preached. But I suppose that is true of all religions. Franky Schaeffer had some pretty scandalous revelations about what was going on at his father's church in L'Abri, Switzerland, and there's been some pretty damning allegations coming out of Mother Teresa's Missionaries of Charity. And we all know about the ongoing pedophile scandal. In my opinion, that is a slap in the face to all those Catholics who have abided by church teachings even at great personal cost, and all those involved need to apologize from the pulpit and explain their actions. Ain't gonna happen.

Some people can keep their faith even in the face of such goings-on. Me, I can't.

 

[epath13]

oh look at that, I think I found a thread to post the quote... anyway, a spiritual path is a path of one, what I mean by that is a person can only find it by him/ herself within him/ her self, everything else are just clues, signs but not the laws or teachings to follow blindly...just an opinion. now about the quote. I have returned to the book that I have abandoned 2 years ago and hopefully this time I will finish it. There's a quote in that book from another book The passage was written by Eliphas Levi Zahed : ?The Qabalists have a horror of everything that resembles idolatry: they. however ascribe the human form to God. but it is a purely hieroglyphical figure. They consider God as the intelligent. living. and loving Infinite One.
He is for them neither the collection of other beings, nor the abstraction of existence, nor a philosophically definable being. He is in all, distinct from all. and greater than all. His very name is ineffable; and yet this name only expresses the human ideal of His Divinity. what God is in Himself it is not given to man to know. God is the absolute of faith: existence is the absolute of reason, existence exists by itself, and because it exists. The reason of the existence of existence is existence itself. we may ask. why does any particular thing exist?? that is, ?why does such or such a thing exist?? But we cannot ask, without its being absurd to do so, ?why does existence exist?? For this would be to suppose existence prior to existence.? ?.. ?To say, I will believe when the truth of the dogma shall be scientifically proved to me." is the same as to say. I will believe when I have nothing more to believe. and when the dogma shall he destroyed as dogma by becoming a scientific theorem. That is to say, in other words: ?I will only admit the Infinite when it shall have been explained. determined, circumscribed, and defined for my benefit: in one word. when it has become finite. I will then believe in the Infinite when I am sure that the Infinite does not exist. I will believe in the vastness of the ocean when I shall have seen it put into bottles."

It's not about existence or nonexistence of God, higher beings or however you want to call it because to me, supporting either side would be irrational. I don't know how to explain it in words, it's more of a sensation I guess... I can try to describe it through a vision that I've had many times in my life, that I'm walking on a sharp edge, sort of like a knife blade, on my left is an abyss of pure reason, on the right an abyss of illusion, and there in between is faith = god, and this is only a tiny glimpse. well, that is the best I can do

 

[2010Dolby]

At least I feel she now has a better view of why I am questioning and, in some aspects, not believing. That is good.

She upset me at one point by saying "You're only half way there...". This means that I am "missing out" on a greater portion by believing only in God but not Christ. I was quite offended by this and I let her know it.

I do not know what the future holds with us; She says we cannot walk together as one on two separate paths. I must prepare myself for the inevitable.

Thats not acceptable. I'm (sorta) in a relationship with a Jewish girl and at first I thought it would be an abbrasive and conflicting relationship because Im a Christian, but almost a month later I'm starting to see that Judiasm, Christianity and even a bit of Islam are so closely connected that its almost like viewing the same God from 3 different camera lenses.

And I hope I dont offend anyone here (please! You guys know Im usually nice ) but I actually think that between orthodox Catholocism and Judiasm, Id probly be a Jew. Im a protestant, so many things about the Catholic church really burn my biscuits.

(Fun fact: My lil Jewish girl might be an Aspie!!! SO HAPPY!!!!! )

 

[kg4fxg]

2010 Dolby I would not blame you if you converted to Judaism. You get to remove much of the Bible and much of the problems.

I have to chuckle over the whole birth control issue now that the Catholics are facing. They are so worried about morals. Even though it was mentioned on NPR that the polls show 98% of Catholic women use birth control. Sounds reasonable, I don't see many families with eight kids anymore.

I read an article the other day that is very problematic. Priest that have even been involved in the sex scandals have not been convicted in the courts and therefore do not have to register as a sex offender. So they move around undetected by the community.

I'll stick to my philosophy books. If ever you want to understand philosophy there are plenty of easy and slightly used books on Amazon that are something like Philosophy made easy. Also podcasts in iTunes. It is not any different than studying religion but you will question everything. Another person I love to read is Ayn Rand. She has been enormous in helping me at work. I am like her, very matter of fact.

Bill